Honesty, Part 2

My last post regarding honesty created quite a firestorm of comments. The general consensus is that honesty is important; it’s just not practical or wise in a sin-wrecked world.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure Jesus said that the values of the kingdom were contrary to those of the world. If radical honesty would be dramatically counter-cultural, that might be a clue that it’s exactly what God expects.

But I can see how what I wrote could be hard to swallow. So let me persuade you further by giving 3 reasons why total honesty is absolutely crucial to the life Jesus promised. (Credit where credit is due: I rarely have an original thought. Most of what follows has seeped into me through interaction with Brett and Will.)

1) A lack of honesty makes true community impossible. Brett said it this way in a previous post: “At the very point that what I think and what I say I think differ, you can only relate to a fake version of me… even if the fake me is just the real me, slightly twisted. True relationship is suddenly off of the table.” Not being totally honest may protect my reputation or my image; but it keeps you from knowing the real me. It forces us to settle for something far short of the authentic Trinitarian community that Jesus intended us to have (John 17).

2) A lack of honesty short-circuits my own transformation. My friend Gavin told me this week: “If I had to be totally honest about what I was thinking all the time, I would LONG for transformation, because the true ugliness of who I am would be on the table! But by not being completely honest, I can hide my need for renovation and convince myself I’m not really that bad. And that does nothing but hinder me from experiencing real, deep, gospel transformation.”

3) A lack of honesty short-circuits the transformation of others. Will and I have a psychologist friend who says that the mark of maturity is being able to deal with negative feelings in a godly way. Feelings are just part of life; they come whether we want them to or not. What matters is what we DO with them. Most of the time, what keeps me from being honest with people is that I don’t want to create negative feelings. It’s easier to not tell the truth and keep the peace than to tell the truth and create tension. So by not being honest, I keep people from having negative feelings, which keeps them from having to deal with those feelings, which keeps them from further sanctification. Is that loving?

Will, borrowing from Derek Webb, wrote that the best thing that could happen to you would be for your sin to be broadcast on the evening news. That would be the passive version of this sort of honesty – someone breaking the news for you. The active way would be for you to break the news yourself by being honest about what you actually think. This can be done in a way that’s not arrogant or awkward or hurtful. Consider this scenario from Will, as he and I were talking about what might be running through my mind in a church leadership meeting (totally hypothetical, of course):

Option 1: “You guys are horrible leaders, and I could lead this church better than any of you.”

Option 2: “Guys, I just feel like I need to be honest – and as I say this, I know that it’s sinful and wrong. But the truth is, I’m feeling right now like I could lead this thing way better than any of you. I realize that’s a prideful and selfish thing to say, but that’s the real me. And I think it’s important for us to be honest with each other about what’s really going on inside us.” 

So, commenters: would this sort of honesty really be a bad thing?

Comments

[Ryan]

Although these are some challenging ideas, could you provide some scripture in regards to honesty that would support it? Some sort of definition would maybe help. John 8:32 is clearly referring to the Gospel and not honesty in general and I am having a difficult time finding anything that supports your theory of reckless honesty with anyone and everyone.

Also, is it lying or sinful to hold off telling someone what your preconceived ideas about them are until you get to know them? I would say no.

[Bob]

Ryan:

Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members of one another. - Ephesians 4:25

If we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. - 1 John 1:7

[Ryan]

Well, I think this will be my last post on the subject. I just don't think it's working well on a board. Plus, to be honest, it's been a rough week because my son and wife BOTH had the flu. My mind is a little gooey right now. That said...

I agree whole heartedly that honesty is the best policy. By all means, tell the truth. In fact, I agree with all 3 points made in this recent post.

The part I disagree with, which I'm apparently not communicating very well, is the part where we are supposed to volunteer what we think about people even when we know it is wrong and have not been asked for it, all in the name of honesty.

Previously someone asked how I deal with my sin personally (and quoted when they should have paraphrased). Was that serious? If so, I go to God with it, confess it to Him, and ask for His forgiveness. Nothing too groundbreaking. This is what I do when I think wrong thoughts about someone.

Again, if someone has wronged you, offended you, or annoyed you, you should confront them and discuss how to resolve the situation. But I see no reason (nor do I see it as sin) for me to tell someone I think they're stupid, ugly, dorkish, whatever, simply for the sake of "being honest." It's just being a jerk, in my opinion.

Anyhow, I'm sorry if I offended anybody. I didn't intend to. Perhaps some of us will just have to agree to disagree. :-)

[d white]

Ryan and Bob-

Ryan, you commented, "Previously someone asked how I deal with my sin personally (and quoted when they should have paraphrased). Was that serious?"

I think this is me that you are referring to...I think. I guess I should have cut and pasted exactly what you were suggesting. You're right--hard to have an honest discussion about honesty on a blog.

About your last question, "Also, is it lying or sinful to hold off telling someone what your preconceived ideas about them are until you get to know them? I would say no."

I think the challenge is--at what point have I gotten to know them well enough? And, the person that they've gotten to know (me) hasn't been the real me if I have preconceived notions.

I guess I would rather error on honesty with a balance of grace and truth involved more often then hoping for an opportunity later on down the road to tell them what I really think. I tend to think black and white (too black and white most of the time) so the subject of honesty strikes a cord in me.

Bob, thanks for clarifying with the 3 points. I'm still pondering these radical ideas and while they make me uncomfortable, I think Gavin is right on. The goal--honesty with transformation and a better world in mind.

[DT]

I'm so close to embracing a life of "total honesty" but before I take the plunge I have a few more questions.

Is there ever a reason to not be totally honest? A couple of comments suggested that maybe there are some values that would, in rare situations, limit or delay total honesty, while other comments/posts seem to say no, it's either total honesty or inauthentic relationship. Is there anything I need to consider before letting the world know what I really think?

You said in the first post, "I think in an ideal community – one centered around the gospel of Jesus – real honesty just might be possible." Is real honesty the key to creating this community or do I need to create this community first so that I can be totally honest?

Finally, I'd like to hear how it's going among those who have already embraced total honesty. A testimony or two about how it's going on the staff team, marriage, or friendship might be helpful in moving me from "honest some of the time" to "totally honest." I'm especially interested in those situations in which the total honesty was volunteered, like showing up at staff meeting and sharing you think you could do a better job leading.

[Walker]

DT, I was going to stay out of this, but you have somehow lured me in. A few of my thoughts about honesty:

1. I think "total honesty" is an exxageration to make a point. We all know intuitively that it would not be a good idea to go around saying whatever is on our mind to whoever is in front of us. This is selfishness to the uttermost degree. That said, most of us are not anywhere close to honest in the areas that we should be. . We err on the side of dishonesty most of the time, so pursuing-- or even thinking about-- something like Bob's "radical honesty" gets us moving in the right direction.
2. Honesty is not merely saying what we think about other people. It is perhaps more so disclosing who we are to other people, allowing ourselves to be seen/known. This is probably the arena of our greatest dishonesty because we are always pretending to be something we are not, or pretending not to be something that we are. Telling someone they are this or that, or that I think they are, is peripheral to much larger issues, issues like facing the truth about our own lives, inviting others into that process, and then humbly disclosing what we discover.
3. On the subject of telling someone they are flirty or dorky or busty, or whatever, I lean toward the idea that one commenter posted: that if the issue is ours, not an issue of character or sin in the other person's life, then we probably need to deal with that (which may or may not include telling that person). Dealing with it, though, should always involve telling someone. Because confession and growth are community activities, radical honesty about who we are and what we think will be required somewhere in the process.
4. If we see something in someone that may be a character or sin issue in their life, we are obligated as borthers and sisters to speak the truth to them in love. We are not very good at this, maybe because we don't want anyone loving us quite this much.
5. I can think of one reason that we may tell someone something that is more personality related (not sin or character), and that is simply so they get to know themselves better. People tell me stuff about me (things I say and do, etc) that I had no idea about. They are not saying I should change, but merely commenting on my life. In this way I am getting to know myself better.
6. Finally, most of this discussion has only been about the negaitve side of honesty (telling people their and our junk). The other side of honesty is encouraging one another, telling people the truth about how we see God in them. This, too, is lacking in our communities. One reason may be that we secretly think that if we prop other people up too much we will be lowering our own position on the totem pole (lifeboat theory). I sense that if we told people the truth in the positive sense that telling them the truth in the negative sense would not be as big of a deal.
7. I have been thinking about this idea for a year now, trying ot practice it. Here is my advice: start somewhere. Discernment is not a formula, but a process of trial and error. So pray for wisdom and humility and start telling people about the real you. You will probably find that they will then invite you to tell them about the real them as well. "Radical honesty" is not a one-time purge, but a way of life that is navigated through the waters of success and failure over time.

[Bob]

Will...

That's good stuff. Like I said, I ripped most of this off from you. Kudos to DT for asking enough questions to draw you out of your silence!

[DT]

Will - well said. I'm all for exaggerating to make a point, but in this case I think the specific examples offered up to show how total honesty would or would not work distracted from the heart of the issue. I think for many of us the need is to focus on those closest to us first and leave the busty girl and nerdy guy for those further down the road. Thanks for providing some needed thoughtfulness.

Bob - Thanks for saying something that stimulating some thinking - I like all the comments. FYI, I stumbled across a book discussing Augustine's views on lying. Apparently he caused a quite stir with his perspective.

[Walker]

which was ...

[DT]

My skim of the book was so brief I hesitate to say. I'll trust Bob, who has actually read Augustine, to correct anything I get wrong. I got the idea that Augustine pretty much said any and all lying was forbidden, regardless of how much apparent harm telling the truth would cause. Saving lives, protecting the innocent, etc. were not valid reasons for lying. Of course I'm barely reading what some other author said Augustine said. Bob, are you familiar with any of this?

[Patrick]

Will, I like #6. All the rest are gool and good and valid, but ya really smacked me with number 6. Thanks.

"I sense that if we told people the truth in the positive sense that telling them the truth in the negative sense would not be as big of a deal."

Why is it so easy for me to call out the dude who doesn't want to be transformed, yet so hard for me to acknowledge the dude who is sweet at being a prayer warrior?

Thanks again Will. I am glad you decided to speak on this iss ue.

[Bob]

DT,

As much as I'd like the self-righteousness of being able to say I have read Augustine's stuff on honesty... I haven't. So I'll take your summary as good! Sounds interesting. I taught this stuff to our college students on Sunday night and they all got in huge arguments about it. Seems that it's more of a controversial topic than I thought!

[Wayne]

Regarding honesty:

Col. 4:5-6: "Conduct yourselves with wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunity. Let your speech always be with grace as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person."

Gal: 6:1: Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness: each one looking to yourself, so that you will not be tempted."

I have read both of Bob Thune's articles today. On the one hand I agree with him that honesty is a must. However, I think that some of the statements made did not take into consideration certain scriptures. Allow me to clarify. When we are removed from this temporal plane and are revealed with God in glory (Col 3:1-4), then this type of honesty will be wonderful and will be a reality because our bodies will be purified forever from the struggle with sin and rebellion toward God.

I say that to ensure that no one will accuse me of not being honest nor can I be accused of heresy or unbiblical interpretation. I take particular issue with some of Thune's comments because they neglect a couple of important facts. First, the way in which this honesty is presented, at least from my lens by which I view people and the scriptures, has a lack of concern for specific situations and has a lack of concern for where someone could be on their spiritual walk. I cited two scriptures above that call for discernment when presenting truth to someone. "...May your speech always be with grace...restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness." Discernment in presentation is a key. It does not automatically mean that you are being dishonest by the way you "restore someone."

Let's take one more example. 1 Cor 8 speaks of an example I find pertinent to this conversation. This passage speaks of food being sacrificed to idols and believers eating that food. What the passage is really talking about is the liberty and freedom we have in Christ. Now, as Christians, we have freedom to be completely honest, for, as Bob Thune discussed, our identity is in Christ Jesus. However, we can never allow our liberty to cause another to stumble.

1 Cor 8:7,9-12: "However not all men have this knowledge...But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol's temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding his conscience when it is weak, you sin against God..."

"For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died."

As Christians who are varying in their maturity in Christ, we are called to be gentle to one another. We can be honest, but we must be wise and discerning. If I have a sinful or prideful heart or thought toward a fellow Christian, it may not be prudent to tell them. What is prudent is to fall on my knees before God, confess that pride, and repent. And, if I find that as a pattern in my life, I go to someone more wise and mature than myself and seek their guidance and their discipline.

This honesty that has been spoken of here is no excuse to harm another with my "honest" thoughts. I end with a few choice Proverbs:

10:19: "When there are many words, transgression is unavoidable, But he who restrains his lips is wise."

12:18: There is one who speaks rashly like the thrusts of a sword, But the tongue of the wise brings healing."

15:1-2: "A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger. The tongue of the wise makes knowledge acceptable, but the mouth of fools spouts folly."

Finally, 17:27-28: He who restrains his words has knowledge, And he who has a cool spirit is a man of understanding. Even a fool, when he keeps silent, is considered wise; when he closes his lips, he is considered prudent."

Final thought: Honesty is of utmost importance and is most definitely Biblical. However, to take it to its extreme, where others, perhaps not so mature or knowledgeable, can be hurt is also wrong and can quickly turn to pride and sin. Balance, discernment, and wisdom should be desired in this.

DoubtingThomas

[Paul]

I enjoyed Wayne's inclusion of the Proverbs regarding this area. I feel like in the search for honesty, we can be a lot more us-centered than others-centered or Christ-centered.

For example, Bob, your inclusion of the two types of honesty at the end of the post was good, however I think both of these circumvent positive honesty for the sake of personal revelation. The difference between helpful honesty ("speaking the truth in love" Eph 4:15) and hurtful honesty ("A fool does not delight in understanding, but only in revealing his own mind" Prov. 18:2) lies in what the purpose of the honesty is, I think.

If we are "just being honest" for the purpose of telling people ways that we sinfully think we could do better than they do at a given job, I'm not sure that's the same thing as saying, "I am struggling through my own pride with regards to how this team should be led, however...(including specific areas of oversight or whatever fuels your pride, as well as personal sin that feeds our pride)."

So much hurt has been done to people in the name of "just being honest..." that I second what Will says above that saying whatever, whenever, as long it is "honest" can be "selfishness to the highest degree". This is the dividing line, I believe: to be loving first, and honest second. If we follow through 1 John, walking in the light with God is first being loved by Him, and then being honest with Him and others within the safety of His love and our love for one another.

Jesus was often brutally honest with His audiences, the Pharisees especially, but also with the disciples. However, at times Jesus seems to obscure the truth with parables, so as to keep it from people who could not handle it or who would misuse it. Sometimes truth must be progressively revealed. There has to be a wisdom in our honesty.

Jesus wisely uses the truth to expose sin, reveal His character, etc. My prayer is that I can grow in my openness and honesty as I grow in Christ to love Him more and love others in Him.

[Bob]

Paul:

Wisely said. Your wisdom and depth of insight is evident.

I admit my examples are not the most "kosher" ones. The point I am trying to make by choosing them is this: we tend to be most dishonest by hiding who we actually are. My examples are intended to show that being honest about the "real me" - the one who actually thinks sinful and ugly things about other people - is the hardest kind of honesty because it does the most damage to my ego and reputation and self-protection. And dying to my ego might be the most loving thing I can do for others.

Your point that love must lead is a point well taken.

[leonkyoaeja]

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